WJTalk - Olympics

Was Paris Hilton there

Let Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity shine along with the Olympic torch relay.
Down the Chinese communists.

A country of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from earth.......

The torch ought to come to New York City where the UN Headquarter sits and a bunch of internationals await.

The more protests the better China will become...

China will be reborn through Olympics.

國際奧會執行委員會將於後天開始在北京舉行的三天會議中，檢討未來奧運會國際傳遞聖火之事。

＊登小評＊
　　根據推動世界和平的＜史很多組織＞宣稱：豈止應該停止這項全球聖火傳遞行為？更應該的是，為避免引起更大的爭議和全世界各地越來越激烈的抗暴，導致不斷流血事件的發生，國際奧委會應立即收回北京的2008年奧運主辦權．
　　＜史很多組織＞說的對！一個西藏已經搞成這樣，將來疆獨也進來插一腳，凱達組織也來出沒各地．如此這般，一個京奧下來要死多少人，國際奧委會知到嗎？算的出來嗎？　　　
　　＂我不殺伯仁伯仁卻因我而死＂，國際奧委會不要只為一個四年一次的運動會，而被世人永遠污名化，折損了自己崇高的威望才是．

It's all Paris' fault

兩天前就想就此文留言，但不知爲何總是無法進入留言網頁。現在把當時想說的話表達一下：

本人支持示威遊行，但願這能迫使中共改變其僵化思維，改善人權，加快民主化進程。

巴黎示威（包括所謂的「閙場」）是人類良知的表現，作爲一個中國人，我敬重這些示威者。

本文作者建議全面抵制法國貨，怎麽聽起來跟「憤青」的立場差不多。作者口口聲聲要維護聖火，請問，在無視人權的中共的專制統治下，北京奧運的聖火有何神聖可言？

並兄釣鑒:

奧運聖火與示威抗議，是可以和平共存的。我是中國人，北京奧運是全球中國人(或更廣義的說，是全球華人)的光榮。這是我基本的立場。

在中國人臉上抹灰的事情，我不支持。就這麼簡單。呼籲抵制法國，也不是與誰呼應，而是在束手無策的無奈無助之下，想到的唯一的對策。

巴黎的失控，是法國人不會(或不願?)處理這個大場面，看過舊金山當局的處理後，不知您現在會同意我的看法嗎？

又：過去兩天，wjtalk 是很難上去，我自己也感覺到了。謝謝您的耐心與關心。

沈女士：

謝謝回覆。我也反對任何讓中國人丟臉面的事情。但我覺得示威是民主社會中表達不同意見的一種方式，中國並非一定會因此而顔面盡失。舊金山警方雖然處理得很巧妙，避免了鬧劇出現，但把聖火傳遞搞得像偷偷摸摸一樣，中共也未必因此而增光。

的確，示威者有過激行爲，擾亂了聖火傳遞的正常進行。但對這一結果實際上中共負有一定責任。中共在國内始終不給不同政見者一個自由表達不同看法的機會，而且動不動就對其「繩之以法」（判胡佳入獄就是一個例子）。因此抗議中共某些做法的人士就只有利用奧運聖火在國外傳遞這一時機表達自己的不滿情緒了。所以，我認爲中共應該改變其一貫的高壓政策，向異議人士提供一個讓他們在國内自由表達不同意見的渠道。

希望中共能從所謂的聖火鬧劇中吸取教訓，借助奧運這一契機開始向民主社會邁進（但願這不是一個奢望）。

如果中共一意孤行，繼續其僵化思維，打壓異議人士，那麽這才是讓全球的中國人丟臉的事情！

Dera Ms. Shen: I am sorry that I don't have Chinese software to express my supporting opinion to you. To Mr. Bin, may I sugget that let's look forward to the future and give the Chinese government a little time to change/reform? Let's us turn to the history. From 1661, after 300 years or more it makes UK a democratic nation, and America needs 200 years or so to becomes a democratic country(history also tells us that US Constitution was written after the establishment of USA 10 years or so later).

My grandmother was purged to death in 1952 and I was lucky to escape the Communist rule in 1948 with my parents when I was 5 years old. My childhood life was miserable. No need to tell you what happened to me and my family in the years of 1950-1969 until I came to US. Of course, I have big reason to hate the Communist China as you do. However, today as a retired senior, I can forget and forgive the CCP had done to my family. I returned to my hometown twice in 1991 and 1999 and I found out that things were changed, and my folks had a better life than 1950's, 1960's, 1970's and 1990. My point is that China is too big to govern, therefore, please give her a little bit time to change peacefully not with blood. We all want to see a strong China with human rights.

If China lost face,in the international society, we (Chinese people)are all losers. My friend, China is changing.

My friends: Do you know that American women could not vote(no franchise right) untile some time in 1920's? Do you know Afraican-American get their human rights until 1964-68(Bill of Human Rights)? Democracy(human rights) is a long way to go! Again, China is changing though the pace is too slow and too little.

京奧未來臉已先丟矣１
中國人已因中共的霸道蠻橫受到傷害．西藏人要求的只是自治，和香港一國兩制基本的要求沒有什麼不同，為什麼中共要寬待香港苛薄西藏？
西藏人被中共欺壓幾十年，利用京奧血灑拉薩，引起世人同情求取支持，是不得已的苦肉之計　．共產黨不應該以大暴對藏人的小暴，更不要怕西藏人要求自治變獨立．中共給了藏人自治，藏人若搞獨立，中共有許多方法可以防範封鎖，西藏是根本無法長久獨出去的，中共的害怕是多餘沒有必要的．
中共若不用一國多制處理藏疆問題，藏疆將永遠是中國人的傷痛，現在只為了一個京奧而花出幾千倍幾萬倍的代價值得嗎？
致於在巴黎，有人抵制奧運聖火就鼓吹拒買法國貨，這樣的反應欠缺缺成熟圓融的風範，是無法說服知情達理的大眾跟進的．
補充一點，非常支持＂並非不愛國＂兄的觀點，我老何一直同情支持西藏人自治，現在終於有人應合，可見得＂德不孤必有鄰＂此話一點不假！

愛中國就要根除共產黨，所加諸中國的禍害．指望共產黨變好變仁慈是，不切實際的癡心妄想．
給它時間去改變成民主人權國家，在它沒給西藏新疆人自治，拆除瞄準台灣的非飛彈前　，都絕對是不可能的事情．

Mr Old He: You write a lot. However, some make sense but some don't. I hope that you could touch a little political sense. Very simple, if Tibet can talk, what about Sinjiang, and Taiwan, all for their independence and who knows the next province? Chinese history has told us that from 770 BC until today, China is mostly a divided country. We cannot have more divided kingdoms within China. (HK is different because she was returned to China from UK.) Some people critized that Taiwan government holds US for her independence. Tibetan people how about you? You are holding UK,US,Germany....are you doing the same? Poor China!

Who made China lose her face in the international society? Her own people, Tibetans.

National interest above the "law". US is an example during WWII and the Cold War.

He San Hong: Make some sense! Your comment of 4:12 is naive.

Some countries want to see independent Tibet, Sinjiang, Taiwan and a divided China or a collapsed China. Do you think US will sit on the fence when China sends her troop to quell Tibet's independent movement? If Tibet does so? Today, only UK, US, Germany are symbolically paying their sympathy to Tibet. If China sends troop to quell Tibet independent movement later, there will more bloodbath and all the countries will rise against China. You don't want to see that China would be isolated again, do you?

Ms.Shen:
This is really a great brief comment.
Appreciate it very much.
With my deepest respects,
A US citisen

We all love China,no matter he/she is a Chinese or a US citi(z)en do you agree, Mr He? Nationalism is a sword(Hong Shui Meng Shou), history had it proven in the 19th century in Europe and US.

What the fuss! The world has got to come to an end.
December 21, 2012 is speculated to be the doomsday of the World, based on the Mayan Calendar and other sources.
Mayans are the descendants of mogolians.

不論外國人想對中國怎樣，中共該合情合理對待西藏人，這是不庸置疑的．
中共不合情合理對待西藏人，讓西方國家找到見縫插針的機會，錯的是中共．怪西方國家是：欺騙自己中國人，和政治權力任意濫用的飾詞．
西方國家想盡方法要在中國獲取最大利益，已有百多年的歷史，也不是今天在西藏才有的事．因此，中國要避免西方國家的侵凌，不可能再來一次八國聯軍之戰，唯一避免西方國家侵凌的方法就是：建立合情合理勤政愛民全民擁戴的政府和政制制度．中國共產黨目前最欠缺讓人詬病讓人能見縫插針的就是這個．
　　一直到現在，西藏精神領袖達賴講的是自治不獨不武，為什麼共產黨傲謾的不予理會？既然共產黨能對著香港澳門台灣能大喊一國兩制，為什麼卻不敢回應達賴的不獨自治對談要求？一個有擔當有作為愛和平愛百姓的政府，不會把最基本的誠信公平問題玩弄於骨掌之間，並歧視苛薄少數民族．共產黨要認清歷史潮流的走向，一昧的打壓西藏人的自由，到最後西藏就真的如柯索夫一樣，在西方國家的支持下從塞爾維亞人屠殺下走向獨立了．

To Mr. Lin:

Thank you for your courteous comment. I'm sure you earned a lot of respect from all those who read your comment, though I still don't quite agree with you.

I agree it takes time for China to become a democratic country. I also agree that China has changed greatly for the past two or three decades. The Chinese people definitely live a much better life than 1970s. But the changes mostly took place in economic areas. Politically, the changes, if any, are not much and kind of too slow.

To the Communist Party in China, any change for moving toward a democratic country means that they will have to give up some of their absolute powers they are having right now. Are they willing to do so? No, absolutely not. I don’t think they will give back any of the powers to the people unless they have to.

Then here comes this question: does the Chinese government really want to have these changes or they simply need more time to make these changes? Here is my answer: any totalitarian government would hold on to their powers for as long as they can.

How do we make them change then? We have to make our voices heard, give them pressure, let them feel the need to change -- just as the protesters and dissidents such as Hu Jia have been doing. Even in U.S. history, many positive political changes would not have taken place if not for the many demonstrations and protests, even bloodshed. If there had been no Martin Luther King and the human rights movement that he led, who knows how much longer we could have waited for the human rights that the people of color have been enjoying in the U.S.?

A lot of people may not agree with my viewpoint that politically, China has not changed much. I will just use one example to illustrate my point: even today, the Chinese government still describes the nationwide student demonstration in 1989 as “anti-revolutionary riot.” 19 years later, the Chinese government's crackdown on Tibetan protesters again reminded me of what happened on June 4, 1989. Almost immediately, the Chinese government again called what protesters did as "riot” (this time by what was called “secessionists”).

When I came to the United States in 1999, I was quite pro-China and always defended China's policies whenever possible. Today, I still love China, but I just hope that the Chinese government can really improve its human rights and move toward a democratic country, maybe in a faster pace, so that China can become a better society for everybody, not only those with “vested interests.”

My dear friend, Mr Bin: Please accept my respect and admiration to you. I am going to have a meeting now and talk to you later. Take care.

My dear friend, Mr Bin: Please accept my respect and admiration to you. I am going to have a meeting now and talk to you later. Take care.

My dear friend, Mr Bin: Please accept my respect and admiration to you. I am going to have a meeting now and talk to you later. Take care.

In order for China to become a democratic country, CCP must be abandoned.
As for the public, a hungry man cannot be fed with all kind of food, but gradually with increased staples. Otherwise he would be chocked to death.

I read other blog it says that "Dalai is coming to town begging US support."

Yes, why he came to US at this sensitive time? Asking Pelosi to give him another medal? or to hold Bush's big foot?

"別忘了，中國人手裡握著最有力的武器──購買力。中國人如果全面抵制法國貨，看看法國警察在維持示威場面時，還會不會失控？法國貨、法國旅遊、法國種種，全部都拒絕。這就是北京聖火該有的立場，看看誰還不會好好維持聖火傳遞的場面."--这种老共的霸道语言竟然在受人尊敬的世界日报体育版上读到, 真是奇文共赏之!

Mr jeff ma, so, tell me what to do? Do you know what is "Gunboat Diplomacy?" Do you know the Cuban Crisis" and who won?

就目前共藏雙方的攻防而言，共產黨是一再節節敗退，全球相信有三十億人支持西藏不獨不武自治的訴求．
共產黨固然可以繼續蠻幹血腥鎮壓藏民，繼續聖火傳遞活動，但奧運的精神，其象徵的意義一點都沒有了，再搞下去只不過是個笑話而已．
所以文大人要問共產黨，除了一再替中國人丟臉之外，你還能做些什麼？

Big Wen: Tibet is in peace now. How do you know 3 billion people support Tibet? Tibetans made China lose her face. If you don't like CCP how about DPP? Or 100 polotical parties? No way, my friend.

My dear friend, Mr Bin: I respect your points and learned from you in some way. However, as I stressed that " we should give the Chinese government more time to reform." You might know that American Indians need 100 years or more to get their benefits(human rights), and the Blacks have struggled more than 300 years, since 1661 the first slave in America, to enjoy their benefits (human rights). You only give the Chinese government less than 50 years to reform the backward, huge, and not a law-abiding country. It's not fair. Your heart tells you that China is changing and improving though a little slow. Do you agree? Thank you.

中國時報 2008.04.12　
北京應慎重考慮和達賴對話了
白德華／專題報導

　一場奧運聖火傳遞，讓達賴喇嘛成為舉世焦點。北京沒想到，原自認站在「正義」一方的「拉薩事件」，竟成為國際攻擊中國反人權的引信，不僅摧毀中國好不容易樹立的「和諧外交」新局，更無端讓奧運捲入一場政治漩渦。

　首先，北京不是不知道達賴並不想獨立，而是要一種「真正的自治」。達賴要的是，能按自己的宗教、文化、信念和語言遂行統治的事實。

　但北京認為，這是「大西藏」主義，要把四川、青海等地的藏族自治州全納入，要實行「種族隔離」政策。

　應提出大西藏替代方案

　對中共來說，西藏不同於台灣問題。台灣因隔著海峽、歷史淵源加上民主制度，中國及平民百姓都認可台灣未來「準獨立」的特殊性，只要兩岸經貿融合、政治分歧降到最低，就是「準統一」。

　但西藏向來就具有特殊性，北京甚至不惜動用「民氣」來凝聚如今統合的局面。北京面對西藏、新疆問題如此戰戰兢兢，不是沒有原因。

　對話的本質就在於解決歧見。如果中方認為達賴的「大西藏」主義不可行，是強人所難，北京大可表明問題難點，涉及什麼爭議，而不是帶著達賴的代表去看改革成果，一味讓代表知悉中國在西藏建設上的用心等等。

　其次，把達賴喇嘛說成「希特勒」，對內宣傳「拉薩事件」是達賴集團有組織、有預謀的策畫，這不僅無法獲世人認同，更表明北京有意關閉雙方直接對話的管道。

　把達賴比希特勒 惡化情勢

　北京學者私下表示，過去北京多次和達賴代表會晤，但「被騙過多次」。這不禁讓人想起中共過去也多次說「被李登輝騙」的情景。問題是，一個崛起且擁有那麼強大偵搜能力的大國，真那麼容易「受騙上當」嗎？

　的確，不少暴力攻擊事件都來自極端的「藏獨組織」或「藏青會」，包括「拉薩事件」及倫敦、巴黎的聖火傳遞抗議。

　但事實是，達賴對「藏青會」只具「道德約束力」，不具「法律約束力」。西藏流亡政府首席部長多次表示，「藏青會」的暴力行動未獲達賴的認可，達賴也只能施以「道德感召」。

　果真如此，北京為何不向達賴喇嘛釋放善意，增加達賴說服年輕藏人的籌碼，以更和平方式處理西藏？

　傳統治藏手段已見立即危機

　顯然，北京具有其他的策略意圖。就是西藏問題不急於解決，等西藏經濟逐漸上軌道、達賴喇嘛老成凋零，流亡藏人失去精神領袖，未來就不是問題了。

　但北京忽略了一點，奧運關鍵時刻，這種傳統治理手段已出現了「明顯且立即」的危機。

　奧運是世界頭等大事，原本美事一樁，如今卻急轉直下成「世界汙點」。於今之計，唯有北京採取主動，開啟雙方直接對話，化解這場危機。

　不善待西藏這件事，終可能在國際間「陰溝裡翻船」，增加世界對中國崛起的疑慮。直接和達賴喇嘛會面，不僅能展現自信和勇於面對的擔當，更能表現尊重人權，胡溫當局切莫因小失大。

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